Battle Scars of a SaaS Leader
Understanding the stories of resilience, strategy, and leadership is essential for success in the competitive sales world.
James will uncover the raw and unfiltered real-life experiences of sales Leaders, exploring the ups and downs and lessons learned in the high-pressure sales world.
Battle Scars of a SaaS Leader
How to WIN the Aussie SaaS Market
In this insightful episode, we dive deep into the Australian SaaS market with Alex Wilson, author of a new paper for SaaS companies looking to expand into Australia. Alex shares his journey from London to Australia, highlighting the unique "barbell effect" of the Australian market, where 95% of companies are SMBs, while a small oligopoly of 5,000-6,000 enterprises drive 60% of SaaS revenue.
Learn about different sales motions for market entry, the importance of localization (especially regarding data sovereignty ), and why Australia is often a more accessible entry point into APAC compared to other regions. Discover the critical need for long-term commitment and local expertise , as Australia is a highly relationship-driven market where burning bridges can be detrimental.
Whether you're an international SaaS leader eyeing APAC or an Australian startup, this episode provides invaluable intelligence to define your go-to-market strategy.
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Connect with James
➡︎ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jbergl/
Connect with Alex
➡︎https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-wilson-69021945
Host & Guest
➡︎ James Bergl (The Gentle Giant)
➡︎ Alex Wilson
Videographers/Editors: Romain Pondard/Klippable
➡︎ https://www.linkedin.com/in/romain-pondard
➡︎ https://www.klippable.com/
I think 95% of Aussie companies are SMB. You've then got a kind of big oligopoly of enterprise whales who are dominating mining, financial services, government healthcare obviously Do you remember how many enterprise businesses there are in Australia? 5,000 to 6,000. You know, 60% of the revenue that was coming into the SaaS market was coming from those enterprises Fewer businesses versus SMB but they are actually paying their fair share when it comes to actually winning one or two of them. Let's try and pour a bit of gas on the fire here.
Speaker 2:I think it's really valid because Alex super grateful that you joined You've just written an incredible paper for us which really aims at SaaS companies that are thinking of coming into australia. I also think that a lot of the content is incredibly relevant for australian sas, startup scale-up businesses, because the amount of intel that you've got around the, the types of customers, the volume of customers in this market, I think can really help to define go-to-market. But before we crack into that, just I'd love to get to a quick introduction from yourself and kind of who you are, your background and um yeah sure what excited you about kind of working with us initially?
Speaker 1:yeah sure, so I am pretty new to Australia.
Speaker 1:I started my career mainly in London.
Speaker 1:Um, I had a lot of kind of initially early stage startups doing a lot of kind of first go to market sales rep, partnerships, person on the ground and kind of eventually went further and further up market. So did a bunch of work with companies like the Financial Times, a couple of soft bank portcos and most recently my last perm role was with Pad with paddle, where I was leading a lot of the new product launches, new market launches, and decided to have a bit of a lifestyle change moved over to australia finally kind of did what I said I was going to do when I was 21 and and interestingly I fell into a lot of kind of consulting work, I think because I've experienced a lot of markets traditionally US, uk, europe, israel even managed to, I think, build up a bit of a playbook of how to actually properly assess a market, launch into it when you're first customers, and so fell into projects with a lot of folks who were looking to move into Australia for the first time I think we met via David Corbin was it yeah?
Speaker 1:At JOSIS in the Commons on George Street and I think we kind of got chatting. You said you were looking to kind of put more insight out there and I think it was probably aligning with the times where I was really deep into a lot of research of helping folks come into Australia and yeah, it was a pretty interesting, eye-opening research, to kind of put my academic hat on, speak to a lot of operators and try and get some of their insights and hopefully get a decent product which adds a bit of value to folks who are thinking about it or wanting to get a better understanding of, I guess, their home market.
Speaker 2:Well, we had 250 organic downloads within the first couple of weeks, so I think that speaks to the volume of the interest in it and the feedback was generally really positive and I learned something and I rely on some of the data when I'm having conversations as well, so I'm really really happy with how it came out. But I wanted to take an opportunity to share some of the findings on this show for SAS leaders, operators, whether you're in Australia, whether you're international, thinking about this market and when I say this market, apac is, we're here in Australia, but APAC is is much broader market Singapore, singapore is often the the other side of the coin in terms of do I go to singapore, australia? So, um, you know, diving straight in, you know you spent quite a lot of time researching, interviewing, what would you say? The top, um, you know the highlights of the paper were in terms of um, yeah, looking, that would be relevant for SaaS companies coming to Australia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think firstly, starting at the data that I dived right into headfirst, I was really surprised to, I think, what we termed the barbell effect of the market, the fact that you've got, I think, 95% of Aussie companies, I I think 98. In some studies I saw um are smb. You've then got a kind of big oligopoly of enterprise whales who are dominating mining, financial services, government health care.
Speaker 2:Obviously, when you say big, are you talking about volume or value?
Speaker 1:oh, yeah, number of number of uh headcounts yeah, okay, size of business, um, typically revenue, uh, depending on how you're kind of weighing it, um, yeah, by by size, by enterprise, I kind of meant more um headcount uh could be revenue. Uh, so the the kind of big behemoths, you know the con banks of the world, government organisations, the kind of big whales where if you win one of those logos, you're kind of set in the market. I think what was pretty interesting when we then looked at the mid market, there was a pretty small number of companies, which is kind of surprising when you think about Australia having a bunch of success stories, especially in, you know, the SaaS and tech space. You know everyone's heard of Canva, atlassian, airwallex, and you kind of think there's an awful lot of folks who are probably sitting within the space and segment just below that, um, but there's a big dearth, um. I think we kind of got out there and started asking folks like, why is there this gap?
Speaker 1:I think there's probably two interesting reasons. I think one of it is structural a lot of vcs in australia aren't writing big enough checks to take those kind of growth seed stage series A businesses and propel them into series B, series C, which would kind of warrant a mid-market stamp, I think another interesting thing could be a bit of culture. You know you've got an awful lot of folks who are potentially looking for more lifestyle business. Um, they're potentially getting bought out before they ever even get into that stage, whether it's domestically or overseas, um. So, yeah, I think a pretty interesting consideration that folks need to make when they're considering australia is if we're selling heavily into mid-market that's our sweet spot is australia the right market for? And just to clarify what, what are you calling mid-market? Um, mid-market I think we defined as anything from 200 employees up to a thousand. Okay, um, some companies obviously start considering like revenue and things like that, but that's kind of our main approach. Yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:It's. I thought about this a lot as well, and my my perspective, coming from a different angle on this topic as well, is a couple of things. One is Australia is a relatively new country, so we were founded in 1788 around then, from from memory. It's also an enormous mass, um, so it's the same size as north america, with less than a tenth of the population and everyone lives on the seawater, so everyone lives all all the way around the country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what that means from a a business perspective is there's going to be lots of small pockets dotted all around the country of small businesses, and it's actually um, there isn't the, the population in a particular city to warrant necessarily having a full, um, yeah, mid-market sales team or mid-market organization all the time as well. So I think there's something there as well. It doesn't have the legacy, like you know, the, the traditional countries like america or some european ones that have, like these, had been going for many years and generations, um, so there's something in it. But, to your point, the um, the, the clear piece of observation is there isn't, there aren't that many companies in that sector?
Speaker 2:so yeah, if you're looking to to bet big on on australia mid-market, then um yeah, you either need to focus elsewhere or or define a different ideal customer profile to go after yeah for sure, yeah, awesome. With regards to sales motion, there's multiple different approaches for launching into a new region. With your experience, what do you see? Some common ones in other regions and what do you believe is the most appropriate one for someone considering um this region?
Speaker 1:definitely no one fits um fits all approach. Um, I think we had a multitude of different motions from a ton of different operators that we spoke to. Angus at Mondaycom, who's obviously a sort of partnerships leader, had some really interesting things to say about. If you're going for a kind of partner led motion, it's a great way to dip your toe in the water, get that presence without necessarily having to really invest in team operations, even office space. Get one or two really strong partners who can propel your brand. You can kind of piggyback off the, the social proof that that company, whether it's aws or google or maybe even someone smaller who kind of have a very big footprint in a very niche community or potentially, you know we're seeing an awful lot of folks who are taking the conventional sales-led approach right. Potentially they're being pulled into market. Ie, they've got one or two customers who have come inbound to the sales team in London or San Francisco or wherever it will be, have obviously assessed the product and said, yeah, we don't care that you guys don't have any support staff in Australia. We have a real need for your solution for the particular problem that we've got. I think that's what we see a lot of, the kind of smaller, earlier stage companies coming into Australia from by seeing signals in the market and saying, guys, there's a bit of a trend here, one or two maybe there's a bit of an anomaly, but if we've got five inbounds from Sydney and Melbourne, maybe we've got a product market fit here without much effort. Let's try and pour a bit of gas on the fire here.
Speaker 1:I think alternatively, you know, we spoke to the likes of Matt Loop, who's you know now leading efforts at Rippling and has been at Slack previously. I think they had a much more strategic approach where they thought APAC's next on our list, the board's asking for it. There's a huge market of, you know, billions of people over there. We need to find a way of validating that that market works. And I think what was a real common thread when we spoke to a bunch of people right was Australia. If you're coming from, you know, san Francisco or New York or London or Tel Aviv even in some cases, is culturally way easier to come and land and test out that market versus, you know, jumping into hong kong or tokyo or, in some circumstances, even singapore.
Speaker 1:Um and yeah, to to kind of loop back to the approach that they're using for that obviously classic two or three account execs, couple of SDRs, maybe even a country manager, who are saying, look, let's try and spend three years making a good go at this.
Speaker 1:I think we heard from both Matt Loop and Chris Sharp of Pax8, who was saying, you know, a year to set things up, a year to make money and a year to actually step it up a level. And so I think folks who are, yes, being experimental, trying to prove a hypothesis of does this sales motion or does this product-led motion or partner-led motion work, but investing in the market and realizing they need to spend one, spend one, two, three years to actually give a good go of it, rather than saying, ah, didn't work, after six months, let's go back yeah, yeah, I know, particularly in the asean countries they are really put off if you launch a business into region and then a year later you pull out, and so many north american vendors have got a habit of doing that they don't see the revenue and they pull out.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to make a second first impression. Yeah, if you've done that once, I want to touch on the piece you mentioned about the similarities in culture and business and English language as well and kind of pull that towards localization, and that was something that Matt talked about, chris talked about it as well and kind of pull that towards localization, and that was something that Matt talked about.
Speaker 2:Chris talked about it as well, and I think it's really valid, because when you're looking at international expansion, talking to the market in their terms requires a level of nuance and finesse. But if you've got the same language in your code of the software as an example, but if you've got the same language in your code of the software as an example, or from a reporting compliance perspective, it's going to be a lot easier to launch. What did you discover around? Where does it make sense to localize versus maybe hold off in a software product as you go internationally?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question. I think, first and foremost, if you've got a product which someone, like rippling, has, where there is a regulatory involvement, or you know they need to localize um payroll, because that is how the aussie government or the state I don't know anything about payroll, so I'm probably misspeaking here. Sorry, matt, but there's needs there around. You know localizing because it is absolute table stakes for a product to even operate legally within a market. Obviously that is always going to be the first requirement, um, I think, uh, who's the chap from um, one of the chaps that you brought in, who was from?
Speaker 2:Andrew Fiss yeah, from Sonder.
Speaker 1:Yes, andrew Fiss at Sonder. He was saying that data sovereignty was actually big for them and it can cost you and add like six months potentially to an enterprise deal cycle. If you've not got that in place before you start those sales conversations, everything's kind of ready to go. They love the product, they've maybe even trialed it in a. Before you start those sales conversations, everything's kind of ready to go. They love the product, they've maybe even trialed it in a sandbox environment, it's great. And then it gets to the compliance team or procurement team and oh, you haven't ticked the box of data sovereignty. So yeah, that's obviously kind of a key localization thing. That I think isn't particularly sexy but maybe is a big kind of thing to consider. Think isn't particularly sexy but maybe is a big kind of thing to consider.
Speaker 1:Um, I remember matt saying something really interesting about how the, the localization of team, was actually very important. I think when they first started they had a product manager who was working out of new york who matt said you know, super, the reason why he was chosen for this project was because he was one of the top PMs there, but because he wasn't in market speaking to customers day in, day out and also probably had that lack of local knowledge about, I'm sure, what isn't maybe the most entertaining of topics of Aussie payroll compliance. Some of the things which possibly should have been done super early on in their launch into australia actually didn't happen until 12 months, 18 months later, which again cost them progress and probably wiped a bit of their um, a bit of their town as a result of that and when you have a conversation on on aipac, a lot of you know when we international firms they think APAC, they think massive populations, one of the biggest populations on earth.
Speaker 2:But the reality is that APAC is not a single region, it's multiple regions. And we've got within the ASEAN region, you've got Singapore, malaysia, thailand, hong Kong, philippines, indonesia region. You've got singapore, malaysia, thailand, hong kong, philippines, indonesia. Um, each one of them is is it got its own local currency? It's got its own local language, it's got its own local nuances, compliance regulations, etc. The amount of work that is required to successfully go in and execute in one of those markets, just one alone, is substantial. So my counsel when speaking to these companies is like think about where your lowest hanging fruit is from an APAC perspective. And the reality is an English-speaking country that's culturally aligned to North America, europe. English-speaking and an economy that is strong, that has got a culture of giving it a go as well, means that australia often is the the right landing spot.
Speaker 2:There are times where it makes more sense to go to singapore, though. Yeah, and what would you say? Um, if you were to compartmentalize, you know, I would sway you to singapore or australia. Um, what are those, um, those filters that you would put in place and say, actually I think this is probably the time where you should explore singapore? Yeah, really good question.
Speaker 1:Singapore's super interesting, I think, because on the surface level you can see all of the big global companies who have got offices there and you think, great, let's go and target singapore because we win a couple of these logos. You know we've just won apple or google or whatever the the company is, but actually there's only 20 people in the office. So if you're selling by seats and the US or the European offices aren't interested in your product, then it's not actually an enterprise scalp, it's an enterprise logo but not actually an enterprise paycheck, right? Um, I think Singapore is definitely strong in certain segments. You're seeing a lot of the ai native companies open ai anthropic 11 labs who are kind of planting their flag in singapore first, which is counter to how some of the more conventional sas companies of salesforce slack have done things in the past. I'd probably owe that more to the regulatory landscape that they have in Singapore. They've done a lot of work to make the regulatory side of an AI company landing in Singapore very easy for them.
Speaker 1:Australia hasn't really committed to any sort of policy on this just yet.
Speaker 1:I wonder whether or not the fact that we're in election year in Australia at the moment folks are thinking well, there's no point in setting up an office and then Albanese or Dutton turning around to us and saying, hey, actually we are going to put these rules in place right.
Speaker 1:So maybe that's part of it. I think where Singapore is probably quite strong is where you are fully aware that you need to rapidly expand into multiple markets like vietnam, like thailand. If that is the case, you know, let's say, you've got a very homogenous product which doesn't need tons of localization. Possibly it's even a product-led growth motion whereby you just need local support operations, marketing folks who can base themselves out of singapore, but not necessarily sales and solutions teams who are going to have to speak vietnamese or thai on a kind of deal by deal basis. I think that then makes a bit more sense. I think if you do have a kind of classic sales led motion, you're wanting to get good learnings from one market before potentially moving into the next market, and the next market after that australia does kind of make a bit more sense and that's all really interesting and all really valid.
Speaker 2:Something else I've I've layered on top of that as well as is the the cell? Is it an enterprise cell or is it an sme cell? And there's a lot more large enterprises in asia than there are in this region and the economics of a deal may make sense to invest in localization in a couple of countries to grab that land or that market share.
Speaker 1:Completely. What I'd probably add as well is, if you're trying to do an SMB play in Indonesia, let's say, or Malaysia, the digital footprint typically of some of these SMBs in these kind of less economically developed countries is probably lower than if you are trying to sell to you know, let's say, australian nail tech salons, as an example. A lot of them will have their own kind of digital footprint. Or, let's say, an accountant is probably a better option in Australia. Or let's say, an accountant is probably a better option in Australia. Very difficult for you to create a repeatable outbound motion trying to find your niche accountant. Who's one person and their son in a remote part of Indonesia versus someone in rural Australia, as an example.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think it depends on. Do you remember how many enterprise businesses there are in Australia?
Speaker 1:I think 5,000 to 6,000 um. But I think what was most interesting was, you know, 60 percent of the revenue that was coming um the SaaS market was coming from those enterprises. So, yes, naturally fewer businesses versus SMB, but they are actually paying their fair share when it comes to actually winning one or two of them.
Speaker 2:And when you've worked with and consulted and interviewed a lot of these operators, have you noticed a common thread around success, like if there was the top one, two, three things that must be in place in order for you to launch your business effectively in this region? Um, did anything surface?
Speaker 1:I think what we were talking about earlier the, the commitment to market. Um, australia is a very relationship driven market. I was super surprised coming from london into australia where I thought it was a very similar culture but actually kind of far more collegiate, relationship driven. Everyone seems to know everyone. I think someone said to me the other day like you can't really be an arsehole in working in tech in australia, um, because if, if one person hears about it, everybody hears about it and it's very easy to burn bridges and and kind of ruin your chances at the market if, if kind of word spreads um, and so I think folks who have done exceptionally well uh, have really invested in getting out in market, demonstrating that they've got investment.
Speaker 1:Some folks are starting to take much more of a community-driven play, like, if you look at Notion recently, I've noticed that they've had a lot of energy in building a community brand, spending time in market, building relationships in the startup ecosystem, sponsoring events, and I think that actually is a really strong notification to the market that you know we are here to stay. Yes, we were born in the us or born in europe, but actually we've got your guys backs and we've got your um, uh, kind of thinking about what you guys wanted to do um and I want to touch on um founding teams yeah, um, you mentioned, heavily reliant on relationships um there's different types of from what I've seen go-to-market motions, and you talked about some of this in the paper as well.
Speaker 2:What are some of those um different approaches?
Speaker 1:and what is the right one for a different scenario yeah, I mean, I think what was definitely a common thread, um, in terms of who's been most successful, the, the need for having a founding team in market who have experienced the market is definitely key.
Speaker 1:I think think the best ones blend local expertise with probably some transplants from other offices who know the product, know the sales plays and can also embed some of the culture from HQ or some of the larger offices into what is a small team, which I think is critically important, especially if you look at country managers typically get a gig, bring over their kind of star sales talent and very quickly it's very easy for you to have a completely different company culture, especially given the fact that you're, in some cases, 10, 12 hours away in terms of time zone and start maybe building a culture which isn't quite what HQ wants to have or is right for the company or the product. So I think having that blend of local operators and expertise, as well as even if it's six months or 12 months that folks are over here for that is, I think, a really important thing in terms of general structure. Um, I mean, you, you deal with that kind of day in, day out. What's your kind of take on that?
Speaker 2:where I think about it.
Speaker 2:They're going to be um a sales-led approach, where you have a player coach that comes in and he effectively will um will be a hands-on seller and get his hands dirty, and then he'll build a small team around him and what I I've seen successful and I've done myself a number of times is you've got a pod, you've got a couple of sales reps, you've got a pre-sales person, so a technical resource, you've got one or two SDRs and maybe a success person as well, so that pod of four to five covers all bases. So that's one approach.
Speaker 2:The other one is where you hire a regional business operator that is effectively going to build the entire structure, both front office and back office, locally as well. I'm an advocate for it does depend on your investment, your capacity and your, I guess, the stage of business that you're at. But you're getting the right team in place early on and I think it's critically important that you've got that. First hire is someone that, like you said, has got experience in in the market, potentially some relationships as well, but is is going to be hands-on, they've got to be selling, they've got to be the ones that are driving a lot of that initial momentum. So that's that's my experience, um, and and what I've seen seem be successful, particularly at some of the earlier stages um, you know, yeah, series, series b, c, d. Yeah, um, as opposed to some of the later stages that have potentially got some deeper pockets to. Yeah, to invest the interesting full team.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I think also um, investment from execs and founders coming over here, even if it's once a month, once a quarter, depending on how far away they are, obviously um is super important, I think, not just for signaling to customers or prospects that actually, yeah, this is a big core market for for the company, um, but also to to give them a kind of first viewpoint on what are customers saying, what are the product requirements. Because if, if you've got a large scale up and you know this is a a bit of a venture bet to to validate the australian market, maybe the country leads getting what one, two hours a week max with some of these execs or co-founders, and so I think giving the opportunity for folks to actually truly learn what a customer's saying, what are the needs and what are the kind of quirks of the market, yeah, will pay off the dividends.
Speaker 2:Right, alex, I want to dive straight in. One of the key takeaways of the paper that you wrote about, which is got a lot of people talking about it, is this barbell effect. Tell what is the barbell effect and what does it mean for technology companies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was super surprising. So, the way we kind of look at the barbell effect, you've got, I guess, on the left white plate, the SMB market. So 95, 97% of companies in Australia are SMB. 95, 97% of companies in Australia are SMB. On the kind of right side you've got enterprise, where you know one or two key players per vertical, these big whales who are dominating, I think, 60% of revenue into SaaS businesses. And then, surprisingly, in the middle you've got a very kind of narrow, thin um segment of mid-market companies, um, and mid-market is what?
Speaker 2:200 to 200 or a thousand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, um, I think, not a, not a massive market whereby, uh, you can have lots of mid-market companies uh funding these sorts of things.
Speaker 2:I think so cause and effect. How does that barbell story impact a technology SaaS business that is thinking about coming to Australia?
Speaker 1:I think if folks are doing their due diligence, doing their homework and looking at the data, if you are in your home market, selling into mid-market and that is a real scalable, repeatable process, there are probably better markets out there than Australia to go after. There's probably some outliers. Some people listening to this might be thinking no, you're wrong, we're doing amazingly well, but nine times out of ten, most folks are going to struggle if they go after a mid-market approach here. If you are selling into smb or you're after one or two key government accounts or big banks, great australia is probably a good approach, and there's also a really interesting fact because, although some of the accounts are very large in size, everybody knows each other and so if you win one or two, you can be propelled to kind of snowball, to fit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super interesting, super, super interesting. All right, next question you spent weeks going through this research and I'm incredibly grateful because so many people have got so much value from it. And, for those listening, the white paper is available to download for free as well. What were your key two to three takeaways that were a, an aha moment, a surprise, or just reaffirm what you thought coming into the research project?
Speaker 1:yeah, I. I think, firstly, australia is very relationship driven. Okay, um, if you're trying to enter the market from a remote outbound sdr team out of lond, it's going to be very difficult. You need to be in market. I think that leads pretty closely to you need to show folks that you are invested here. You're here for the long haul.
Speaker 1:Lots of operators that we spoke to spoke about the need to see this as a three year experiment. You know, one year to set things up, one year to set things up, one year to make money, one year to make things go to the next level. Um, folks can definitely spot when you are here just for six months as part of a kind of board level project. Um, and three key thing is local expertise. Yes, bring people over from HQ, try and get that culture coming across to a new office and a new workforce. But you really need to heavily invest in getting folks in the team who have the contacts, know the nuances of the market and probably have a lot of those relationships already and you're going to really speed up your time to revenue and winning a larger part of the market, even if you've got the best products in the world. Relationships really do matter here and I think that's a big bit of advice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I completely agree, and we've seen that a lot with some of our international clients is they lean on us because we've got the relationships with the people. That have got the relationships as well, and it is incredibly important. Um, it takes the guesswork, it takes the risk out of it as well. So great points, alex, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed the conversation incredibly, um valuable, and the white paper again is available for anyone that wishes to read more about this. Um. Just in closing, one final question. If we're speaking to any international SaaS companies, whether they're in North America, europe, israel that are thinking about APAC, what would be your final tip or counsel as they consider their launch into the APAC region?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it completely depends on company, obviously, but I think number one make sure that there's a big enough market to go after. Make sure you're doing the homework to understand what those customers actually need, probably different to your home market. To make sure there's exact buy-in. Lots of folks are seeing this as a hobby rather than as a full-time project to invest time into the market. And I think three, get local expertise, people who've got the relationships and understand the quirks of the market awesome, great, great tips.
Speaker 2:Thank you again. And yeah, anyone's interested, reach out to Alex. And if they are interested in reaching you, how can they? Linkedin is normally best. Okay, yeah, perfect.
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